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Showing posts with label Duck Management. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Duck Management. Show all posts

March 01, 2019

How Much Will My Ducks Eat?


A question that a lot of people have, including those that have been in the waterfowl community for a while, is how much ducks eat.

Please keep in mind that these are approximations of what a duck will eat if given free choice of a balanced ration and will vary according to temperature, exercise, and genetics.

Pounds of Feed Per Day Per Duck


Week 1
Week 2
Week 3
Week 4
Week 5
Week 6
Week 7
Pekin
.07
.23
.35
.40
.45
.50
.55
All Others
.05
.10
.15
.21
.27
.33
.40
Runners
.05
.08
.11
.15
.2
.25
.30
Mallards
.04
.06
.08
.10
.13
.17
.20


Pounds of Feed Per Day Per Duck – After About 12 Weeks of Age


Laying Females Non-Laying Females and Males
Pekin
.48
.40
All Others
.40
.35
Runners
.30
.25
Mallards
.20
.15

We hope this helps you in making feed and feeding decisions for your birds.

October 12, 2018

How much space should I have for my ducks?



Bigger is always better when it comes to duck enclosures. This holds true at all stages of a duck’s life from hatching to the end of its days. The following suggestions are for enclosed areas with a roof. If you plan on keeping your adult ducks in an open pen with no shelter, you need much more space than a covered pen or building.



Ducklings up to 3 weeks old need 1 square foot per duckling and a minimum of 5 square feet for small groups. This means if you have 4 ducklings, you need at least 5 square feet. If you have 10 ducklings, you need at least 10 square feed of space or more. If you have 100 ducklings, you need at least 100 square feet of space or more.



From age 4-8 weeks, the young ducks need about 3 square feet per bird and a minimum of 16 square feet of space. If you have 5 ducks, that means they need a minimum of 16 square feet. If you have 10 ducks, they need 30 square feet. With 100 ducks, they need 300 square feet.



From age 9-17 weeks, the ducks are now fully grown and will require a minimum of 3.5 square feet per bird and 20 square feet minimum. If you have 5 birds, you need a minimum of 20 square feet. For 10 birds, 35 square feet. With 100 ducks, 350 square feet of space.



Lastly, from age 18 weeks and up is when the ducks become sexually mature and start wanting to mate and lay eggs. This requires at least 4 square feet per duck and a minimum of 24 square feet. If you have 5 birds, they need a minimum of 24 square feet. For 10 birds, 40 square feet. For 100, then 400 square feet.



Keep in mind these are the numbers we highly suggest for enclosed areas with a roof. They can have outside areas during the day, but this is the amount of sheltered space they need, whether they spend their entire day in it or just their nights. Cramped areas can lead to not just health issues including leg and weight problems, but also a higher likelihood of fighting, wetter pens, more smell, dirtier birds, and pens requiring more bedding. We have found that by doubling the square footage per bird, your bedding needs will probably drop by 50%.



Please use the table below as a guide to determine how much space you need and how many ducks you can keep.



As geese are twice the size of ducks, at least double these recommended actions for geese. In other words, 2 week old goslings need at least 2 sq ft each. Guineas and chickens require 75% of the space for a duck.

~~~

Square Footage for Duck Pen

Age



up to 3 weeks 4-8 weeks 9-17 weeks 18+ weeks
Enclosure with a roof* 1 sq ft per bird (min 5 sq ft) 3 sq ft per bird (min 16 sq ft) 3.5 sq ft per bird (min 20 sq ft) 4 sq ft per bird (min 24 sq ft)
Pasture with no shelter Should still be in brooder Should still be in brooder** 40 sq ft per bird 50 sq ft per bird





* Do not consider outside run when calculating enclosure size.
** Ducklings can go outside around 6-8 weeks depending on the weather and how well they are feathering.

September 28, 2018

Hatching Process and When to Help


Hatching your own eggs is a wonderful experience. Caring for the eggs, making sure the temperature is just right, ensuring there is enough humidity, and then going through the nerve wracking experience of watching the chicks’ struggle to escape the shell can be very rewarding. After all of your hard work, of course you will be nervous the little ones hatch successfully. Then you see one that seems to be in trouble. Your first instinct may be to help it, and that is fine, but you should know a few things first.

As it incubates, the embryo is encased by a membrane consisting of blood vessels. These vessels provide oxygen that enters the egg through the shell to the embryo. Several days before hatching, this network of vessels begins to break down and the embryo lacks sufficient oxygen. The egg will have slowly dried out during incubation, forming an air sack. This sack is pierced by the chick in order to get oxygen. Since there is not a lot of air in the sack, the chick will continue to peck until it ‘pips’ a tiny protrusion on the shell which allows for a greater flow of oxygen. After pipping, the chick will rest for 12 to 24 hours.

Once the chick has rested, it starts to make its way out of the egg. It starts at the pip before turning slightly and pecking again. The chick will continue this pattern around the egg until it forms a ‘lid’ which it can push open and wiggle out the rest of the way. During this process, the chick will take several breaks until it is finished about 1 to 3 hours later.

These rest periods are where most nervous soon-to-be bird parents think they are needed the most. After seeing and hearing movement only to have them go quiet and still can be stressful. Knowing when and when not to help a chick hatch is important.

When you help could mean life or death for the chick. If you help before the network of blood veins has completely broken down, you can cause the chick to bleed to death. Following are three scenarios and our recommendations for each.

  • The chick forms a hole where it pipped and does not start rotating within the shell. In this situation you must be careful as not everything went as it should. You can try to help, but stop and try several hours later if you see blood forming where you have broken the shell.

    In the following video, we did not see blood until the 'lid' had been taken off. Make sure to stop and try again several hours later whenever you see blood.


  • If the duckling has started turning and breaking the shell, then runs into a problem and stops turning, you can normally help them without a problem. The key is they have started turning in the shell which means the blood vessels under the shell have shut down and you can help them without fear of excessive bleeding. Gently pull the head out from under the wing and allow the chick to escape the rest of the egg on its own.

    The following video shows a variety of eggs where the 'lid' has not been developed and the chick has not turned, but we were able to help them because there was no blood.


  • If the chick has gone completely around and formed a ‘lid’ only to get stuck, you can definitely help them out by removing the cap.

Many believe that helping during hatch will make the chick weak. This is not necessarily true. You could have a perfectly healthy and fit chick, but due to less than ideal incubation conditions, it may not be able to hatch on its own. On the flip side, it is possible to get a weaker chick when helping a less than healthy chick to hatch. As author and waterfowl expert Holderread says, hatching is like a “fitness test” for the chicks.

August 10, 2018

Broody Ducks



Any experienced waterfowl owner has seen the signs of their females going broody. To new owners, however, it can be alarming. We regularly receive frantic phone calls saying that their females have started behaving strangely and that they do not know what to do.

Broodiness is basically a biological clock that tells a female bird that it is time to sit on her eggs full time. When she lays eggs, she is not broody as she does not sit continuously on the eggs. She merely lays her eggs in the nest and then leaves. Once she has a full next of eggs, she will start sitting on the eggs to hatch them. Only in extreme instances will a female become broody without eggs in the nest. During this time she leaves her nest once a day to eat, drink, and do her business. As it is her instinct to protect her eggs, she will become territorial and grumpy. This will continue until the eggs hatch.

Most birds that become broody take care of themselves while on the nest, only leaving once or twice a day to eat and bathe. As such, they are more susceptible to predators, mites, ants, and other bugs and pests. In extreme cases of those that continue to sit on eggs that will not hatch they run the risk of malnutrition, dehydration, and even death.

If you think your bird will go broody, it is important to encourage her to nest in a safe place. This can be done by providing nesting boxes in advance. Waterfowl have a tendency of choosing a spot for their nest and sticking to it even if the nest is moved. (We had a customer call us once at her wits end. Her goose had built a nest in the middle of a high traffic walkway and was plugging up a pipe. We told her to move the nest since she did not want to destroy it, but when she did the goose rebuilt the nest in the exact same place as before!) Chris and Mike Ashton suggest in ‘The Domestic Duck’ to leave the bird alone while she is sitting and to separate her from any males. To help with exercise, Dave Holderread in ‘Storey’s Guide to Raising Ducks’ suggests placing food and water just out of reach in order to entice her to leave the nest in order to take care of her needs. We suggest switching from a layer feed to a grower feed while she is broody. In the situation that a bird goes broody, but there is no possible way for the eggs to hatch (no males in the flock), it is possible to slip fertile eggs under her or even ducklings/goslings and trick her into thinking the eggs have hatched.

There are some instances in which you do not want your bird to remain broody such as when they go broody without eggs or you rely on her for egg production. Once they start sitting, they stop laying. The best way we find to stop brooding is to take away any eggs and destroy the nest. To discourage her from attempting to make another nest, make sure there are no materials available to her to make a nest. In large-scale turkey farms they have small pens in the laying buildings that have cement or wire floors in which they put their broody hens. After they appear to have lost their broody instinct and no longer want to sit, which can take about 3-4 days, they are returned to the rest of the flock.

We find there are some breeds that are broodier than others. Sebastapol geese are the worst of the bunch on our farm, followed by the African and Buff. On the duck side, the Cayuga seem to be the broodiest followed by the Rouen. On the opposite end, we do not really know who is less broody out of our geese, but our Runner are the least likely ducks to be broody.

A bird going broody is perfectly natural and some breeds can be more broody than others. There are steps you can take to help them through it or to stop it. Hopefully these guides will help you with your broody birds.



August 03, 2018

Bird Shippers of America and Salmonella


Shipping poultry across the US is a very big industry. All across the nation, people are ordering birds and picking them up at their local post office throughout the year. Thanks to the internet, the industry is growing daily and information is being constantly shared. Because of this, everyone with access to a computer or a phone is able to bring poultry on to their property as pets and farm animals, yet many are unaware of what raising poultry entails.

Other than the obvious care and management required to keep poultry, many, especially those looking to keep birds as pets, are unaware of the health risks associated with the task. That is where Bird Shippers ofAmerica (BSOA) comes in. BSOA is an online organization dedicated to the education and safe practice of raising fowl. It endeavors to be a vital source of information for all of your bird raising needs and “ - to improve the Backyard Poultry Industry”. This includes information of different breeds of birds, various tips and tricks in raising them, and making people aware of the dangers of Salmonella and how to protect you and your loved ones.

Salmonella causes 1.2 million illnesses, 23,000 hospitalizations, and 450 deaths every year within the US according to the Center for Disease Control (CDC). Most Salmonella infections come from food, but there are some strains of Salmonella that do not harm poultry but are carried by them and can infect people. It is because of these strains of Salmonella that those handling poultry must be careful.

To help educate our customers, we include a pamphlet from the CDC attached to the back of each invoice about the dos and don’ts when handling fowl.

Do:
  • Wash hands after handling live poultry
  • Adults should supervise hand washing for young children
  • Use sanitizer if soap is not available until you are able to wash your hands
Don’t:
  • Do not let those with weak immune systems, the elderly, or children under 5 handle live poultry
  • Do not keep live poultry in the house, bathroom, or any area where food or drink is prepared, served, or stored
  • No snuggling
  • No kissing

We invite you to read about Salmonella from the BSOA site and to continue to use its resources for any current and future poultry projects.

If you are involved with the mail-order poultry shipping industry, we also you encourage you to join the organization. Membership benefits includes the sharing of information within the poultry industry, access to updated information on research for the caring and shipping of day-old poultry, an avenue of information and response to any legislative changes that would adversely affect the industry, and a discount on postage for shipping your poultry.

Below is an infographic provided by the BSOA regarding precautions against Salmonella.



July 27, 2018

Improving Mobility in Older Geese


A customer contacted us about how she improved the mobility of her older goose, Oliver, with Cosequin.

“Hello to all,
 

I am sharing this in the hope that it may help another goose. I have a goose named Oliver that I rescued 12 years ago. He was full grown so I don't know his real age. About 6 years ago he started to walk less and less and began just staying stationary in the yard until being put in the barn at night. He got to the point that he would barely walk and had to be picked up and carried most of the time. He would get stuck in the bedding in his barn with his feet behind him just shoveling deeper holes.

I have a wonderful bird vet in Dr. Gary Riggs. Several years ago we exhausted every avenue to get Oliver mobile again. He had Adequan injections. He was on Gabapentin and Tramadol. He even had little Dr. Scholls gel insoles glued to his feet for part of the Summer. Nothing helped him. Dr. Riggs described his feet as "gnarly". His toes are not smooth and straight as they should be and look as they may have been broken or infected at one time.

So here is the thing. About six months [ago] I put the dogs on Cosequin. There are 3 different kinds and I actually bought all three. I contacted Dr. Riggs to see if it would be ok to try on Oliver. I started Oliver on the green label bottle simply because that is the first one I bought. [The pills are] shaped like a little dog bone. It breaks in half easily. I wrap each piece in a little ball of bread and pop it down his throat. In two weeks I "thought" I saw an improvement. Now six months later I see him doing things I haven't seen him do in years. Walking....not as much as the girls but he will get up and walk a bit and graze. I have actually looked out the kitchen window and done a double take in that he was in the pond - by himself. I used to have to carry him to get him to go for a swim. He gets up and comes to the barn at night when he sees me getting water buckets ready. He can hop up in the barn with a wing flap but no longer has to be picked up.

It is the only thing he is on at this point. I have no doubt it has made a major improvement in his mobility.

I hope this helps someone else.
Linda, Reebok, Oliver and Piper”

Linda’s story reminds us that sometimes solutions to your birds’ problems can come from obscure places. If you find that your older birds have issues walking, you can try this and see if there is any improvement. From brief searches (thank you Google!), we found that Cosequin is an over-the-counter supplement for older dogs and cats that help with joint pain and Boswellia is considered an anti-inflammatory.

We do not know if this actually works or not, however, as we are not a certified vet. If you do try this, please let us know the results! If you have found an excellent cure for other waterfowl problems, please write us with your story!

July 06, 2018

Hardware Disease



 
Ducks and geese are omnivores. If they think it looks interesting, they will try to eat it. This especially includes shiny things like coins, staples, nails, scrap metal, and the like. Obviously, this is not good for their health and can cause some severe problems. The issues caused by the ingestion of metals is collectively known as Hardware Disease.

While the objects themselves can cause damage, such as a sharp nail piercing the lining of the stomach, it is the poisoning from the metals as they breakdown that is the real problem. Symptoms include but are not limited to:
  • Loss of appetite
  • weight loss
  • weakness and lethargy
  • bright green or bloody droppings
  • difficulty walking
  • seizures
  • death
Poisons are typically fast-acting and once symptoms begin to show they should be treated quickly by a veterinarian. We have a list of veterinarians by state on our website that are knowledgeable in waterfowl care. If a veterinarian is not on hand or not feasible, there are some things you can do to help. Countryside Daily suggests feeding your ducks molasses or charcoal pills to flush out the toxins. Lisa Steel of Fresh Eggs Daily advocates more for prevention, though she does list several herbs such as bay leaves, dill, sage, and thyme mixed as a salad to help detoxify. For objects that would not pass naturally, such as a metal springs or larger pieces of glass, they will require surgery.

The best way to prevent hardware disease is to remove any potential objects your birds might eat. This means monitoring the pen or pasture for anything they might dig up or find. If there has been a building project, make sure all screws, nails, and staples are picked up. To be very thorough, a metal detector would be of help.

Example of things we've found laying around.

March 23, 2018

Golden 300 Hybrid and White Layer Ducks


Golden 300 Hybrid ducks
The Golden 300 Hybrid was developed by us in 1996 in order to meet customer demand for ducks that produce a high volume of eggs but are calmer than the Khaki Campbell. Several years after that the White Layer was developed as customers wanted a duck that had a lighter colored embryo for balut purposes.

White Layer ducks
The Golden 300 and the White Layer are our top egg layers, capable of laying 230 eggs in 40 weeks of production or 290 eggs if they lay for a full year. The only difference we have found between these two strains is the White Layer lays about 1-2% blue/green eggs and the Golden 300 lays about 5% of blue/green eggs. Otherwise they are identical in terms of egg production, egg size, shell strength, etc.

We crossed different breeds of ducks together to make the Golden 300, the breeds of which are a secret! Since the Golden 300 and White Layer are composed of different breeds, they have quite a bit of hybrid vigor and typically have less mortality and live longer than most other breeds. Their eggs are not as large as a Pekin but they produce many more and … produce much less manure!

Male Golden 300 Hybrid ducklings
As ducklings, the sex of the Golden 300 can be determined by their down color. Female ducklings are shades of brown including light brown, chocolate brown, and combinations of brown and yellow, while males are shades of black ranging from stark black to different patterns of black and yellow. As adults, the female can range in color from a light brown to a dark brown with patches of white. Adult males have a much darker plumage ranging in color from all black to black with a white chest to almost a male Rouen appearance. The White Layer, on the other hand, has to be vent sexed as both male and female are yellow as ducklings and white as adults.

If you produce babies from our Golden 300 they will not retain these characteristics of females being brown and males being black. You will hatch all colors, including white, with no relationship between the color and the sex. The White Layer, however, breeds true, meaning the White Layers will produce more white ducks.

Typically they also have great temperaments making them good as pets. We have had some customers, however, that tell us their White Layers and Golden 300 are very nervous and we have had other customers tell us their birds are calm. This is puzzling to us as the genetics does not change. So what causes this wide swings in temperament?

Female Golden 300 Hybrid ducklings
I phoned Dave Holderread, waterfowl breeder and author, and he also agreed that some birds can be nervous and others calm from the same breed. His only guess is that there is a period in their early lives where they are very susceptible to and impressionable by fear. They are scared by a dog, or they are caught and handled by a person, or light movements at night scare them and they are not only terrified but are nervous from that point on.

Can we tell you when that susceptible period is? No. Can we tell you when that period ends? No. All we can say is to allow them to have plenty of room to move away from you in their pen (if they are running or flapping you are moving too close or too fast), warn them you are coming (rattle your keys, whistle, sing, knock on the door or simply talk to them as you approach) and do not overcrowd them. You can always give your birds treats from the very beginning but you cannot count on the treats to totally overcome a traumatic event that makes them overly nervous.

People ask how much egg production will drop in the second generation if our Golden 300 or White Layers are used as breeders. We do not know for sure but our guess is the progeny will lay 5-8% fewer eggs than the birds you purchased from us. We are also asked how much production drops in their second and third years of production. The rule of thumb is a drop of about 8-10% per year.
White Layer duckling
You cannot find a better egg laying duck than the Golden 300 or White Layer. Whether you just want a few ducks for your own family’s needs or you want a commercial flock to sell eggs to farmers markets, bakeries and restaurants, the Golden 300 and White Layer are the ducks for you.


Breed
Temperament
Weight
Egg Production
Mothering
Bluish Eggs
Egg Size
Golden 300 Hybrid
Calm
4.5-5.75 pounds
200-290/year
Fair
5%
75-90 grams
Fertility
APA Class
Foraging Ability
Conservation Status
Our Show Quality
Flying Ability
Origin
93%
NA
Good
No Rank
Not Shown
None
Metzer Farms



Breed
Temperament
Weight
Egg Production
Mothering
Bluish Eggs
Egg Size
White Layer
Calm
4.5-5.75pounds
200-290/year
Fair
1-2%
75-90 grams
Fertility
APA Class
Foraging Ability
Conservation Status
Our Show Quality
Flying Ability
Origin
93%
NA
Good
No Rank
Not for Exhibition
None
Metzer Farms





March 16, 2018

Feed Mill




For both commercial farms and backyard hobbyists, feed mills are a necessity of life. Feed mills are able to consistently produce quality feed for our animals with the nutrition they need. But what actually occurs in a feed mill?

L A Hearne has been our source of feed for over 30 years and we were recently invited for a tour of their mill located in King City, California. Their manager, Mike Hearne, was very enthusiastic about showing us around, starting with the outside of the mill.


Marc Metzer on left, Mike Hearne on right
Every Thursday a train car rolls in with a delivery of corn which is emptied into a vent under the rails. The corn is then transferred to their grain storage building which contains different kinds of grain including corn, oats, barley, and rice.


Train car that carries the feed.
The mill caters to hundreds of customers including feed stores and other commercial growers, all with different feed needs for different animals ranging from our ducks, to horses, to rabbits! The feed is usually sold in bulk to commercial customers and put in 20, 50 and 80 pound bags for their feed store customers. All our feed is delivered in bulk - meaning it is augered directly from the feed truck into our feed tanks, and each truck has 24 tons of feed.
Feed truck delivering feed to our farm!

Bag for rabbit feed!

Some of the grain storage.
Determining what grain and additives to use and in what quantities in a feed ration is a fairly complex process with several factors needed to be taken into consideration. We will cover this in another post in the future.

Feed is made in batches of two tons. Prior to being ground and mixed, all the grains are sent through a sifter to remove any broken pieces of grain and any contaminates. The sifted grains are then sent into a grinder in preparation to be turned into pellets. Different vitamins and minerals are placed in bags beforehand, ready to be mixed into the ground grains. We were lucky to be visiting that day as they were mixing our feed!


Mixer in the floor mixing ground grains.
Vitamins and minerals going into our feed!

Mike showing Marc the mixer.
The complete, ground ration is called a mash. For some chicken and swine feed, this is the product’s final form. For others, the mash is flash steamed to increase the temperature and then, pushed through a pellet die, kind of like frosting through a piping tip. As the ropes of feed emerges from the die a knife cuts it into pellets of the desired length. By flash steaming the feed, all of the bacteria is destroyed, leaving a clean food source.


Pellet die prepped.
Feed being pushed through the die and forming pellets.
The pellets are then sent through a dryer to remove any leftover moisture, preventing mold. For more information on mash, pellets, and crumble feed, take a look at our post on the different forms of feed.

The final product is then packaged and shipped to customers and feed stores.


Mike manning the sewing machine.
Bag of feed heading for the shipping dock.

Thank you LA Hearne for a tour of your mill! Keep up the good work and see you next week!



August 27, 2011

"Domestic Duck Production, Science and Practice" - The Book


I didn't know about this book until a customer told me about it. I am happy he did as we are
changing some of our management practices because of it.  Domestic Duck Production, Science and Practice is a book written for commercial producers. Much of the information concerns raising ducks for meat but the section on breeder management applies whether you have Pekin breeders to produce meat ducklings or Golden 300 Hybrids, White Layers or Khaki Campbells for egg production. Even if you are only a serious hobbyist, there will be information in this book that will make you say “Really?” and you will realize there might be a better way to care for your ducks.

The main change we are making because of this book is our use of light. Historically we have grown our ducks on natural day length and then increased the day length to 17 hours between 20 to 25 weeks of age to bring them into egg production. The authors' recommendation is to maintain the ducks on 17 hours of light their entire life and bring them into production with an increase in quality and quantity of feed when they are sexually mature. “Excellent results have been obtained by maintaining meat strain ducks and drakes on a constant photoperiod of 17 hours from day-old until the end of the breeding cycle. Since this programme is simple and applicable at all latitudes it deserves to be adopted as the standard method for rearing Pekin breeding stock.”
Research supports all the information in this book with some of that research being done by the authors.  There is a list of references at the end of each chapter if you want to do further research on a specific topic. There are many graphs showing the results of the research and quite a few formulas showing the effects of different variables on weight, age of maturity, etc.

This graph shows the increased egg production from Pekin breeders that were fed 80% of full feed (Controlled growth) up to 18 weeks versus those that were fed all they wanted (Ad libitum feed) their entire life.

The chapters in Domestic Duck Production, Science and Practice are:
History and Biology of the Domestic Duck
Systems of Production
Housing and Environment
Husbandry of Table Duckling
Nutrition and Factors Affecting Body Composition
Rearing of Parent Stock
Management of Breeding Ducks
Fertility and Hatchability
Genetic Improvement

This drawing shows the ideal duck feeder to prevent waste.  Divide these numbers by
25.4 to get inches.

A few other "Did you know?" items in this book:
  1. Prior to egg production, female mallards eat a diet predominantely composed of animal foods to satisfy their demand for protein for egg production. Males, in contrast, subsist mainly on a vegetable diet.
  2. Average weight of a 7 week Pekin in 1928 was 3.6 lbs. In 2011 it was 8.1 lbs.
  3. In Asia, ducks are grown in buildings above lakes stocked with fish. The slotted floors allow the droppings to feed the algae which feed the fish. Up to 2000 ducks can be grown on each 2.5 acres of pond using this method.
  4. There is true value in keeping the bedding thick in cold climates as the composting generates heat which reduces the heating bill and/or feed consumption.
The problem with a specialized book such as this is that there are few potential buyers and they have to charge more for the book. Yes, the price is $109.95 but for those of you earning money from your ducks, this can be paid back quickly with the valuable information in it. If you are a commercial producer, the other book we recommend is Nutrition and Management of Ducks by Dr. William Dean and Dr. Milton Scott, which emphasizes the nutrition of ducks. Both books can be ordered in the book section on our website.

Do you have any waterfowl books that you have found valuable but we do not sell?